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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 11:23 am 
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I'm just going to go through a bullet list addressing things in this thread:

- If you are not for this, your answer of "No" holds the same water as someone who says "Yes". This is why we're asking, to gauge interest and actually generate data through a democratic process, on a topic that has been discussed at great lengths on this forum, other forums, on the Facebook groups, and at the Runoffs town hall meeting, all in the past year.
- The survey was sent to anyone who participated in at least one Majors level event in the past three years, or during any two seasons in the past five seasons. This was about 390 different Prod racers. If you fall into this group but didn't receive a survey, then you need to update your email address with the SCCA. (Charlie Campbell, Aaron Johnson, and Mike Cummings, you were all "on the list".) Majors level participation was the base criteria because that's what the national office has collected data regarding, and thus can be utilized. Regional level racing is not collected as such, and that decision is way above the pay grade of anyone on the PAC.
- The survey addresses alternate calipers, standardized rotor sizes, drilled/slotted rotors, and OEM ABS as SINGLE STANDALONE issues. Please respond to them as such.
- The survey asks about and explains how things like caliper design and OEM ABS would be limited, so stuff like crazy expensive titanium calipers and aftermarket ABS system would never happen.
- The survey asks for feedback about competitive balance and how/if things could possibly be controlled/weighted.

Let us all read this point again:
Quote:
The goal is to make building, racing, and maintaining our racecars easier, cheaper, safer, more fun, and more appealing, so any proposed changes would be made for the sole purpose of achieving those goals.

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ruckracing honda's:
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 1:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:59 am
Posts: 1449
Location: Spring Hill, FL.
If updated calipers are allowed with enough weight that precludes them being required to win. , it could work .
What we dont need is that the perceived advantage is such that we all have to update . That is a huge fail. IMHO. Making any change that requires the racers to change hurts the class. Rods, valve stems ,each cost us all money to just go a little tiny bit faster . Yes. 1% is enough to separate p1 from P3.

There may be some younger racers building cars that avoid the issue because they have newer cars and ABS. New cars have larger, better brakes .

It's not inconceivable now days to see some kid buy an old LBC and look at the brakes and say crapp. LBCs are way cheap and may be a gateway drug. Who knows. Maybe the new calipers would help the LBC effort . I dont have one .

My VW has enough caliper to work fine. I rebuild them each season and check for piston effort each race . The sliders pins may have been sleeved to stay square-ish on the pad . I toss the pads every other race except for Sebring .
The Toyota uses Corona 2 opposed piston calipers . Same as 240Z and a bunch others. Big , heavy , stop well . Pads last 3 races/ +-.

The bores of the calipers have very little effect on the caliper value. The Piston needs to be pretty nice tho. Both of my cars have kits available .
I have not seen a real situation where you simply can't buy the parts.

The little race calipers do have pads available and may last longer . per Matt above . Long term cost may indeed be less. So we should allow any aluminum or iron caliper at plus some weight. say 1.5 %

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Mike Ogren/Protech Racing, http://www.FWDracingguide.com http://www.ogren-engineering.com/ 352.428-8983 mogren@tampabay.rr.com


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 3:27 pm 
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Location: 138 miles north of Blight
New pads for every event because of wear and pad taper.

Sometimes a few are good enough to cut back to level using the endmill and re-use for a practice session.
Brake pad dust cuttings on equipment = :cry: :doh:

New rotors require 3mm removed off diameter to meet the rules. Use the lathe for that one.

A waste of time and money in the current arrangement.


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 3:37 pm 
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Location: 138 miles north of Blight
Not the best way to treat a Kurt vice.


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 5:08 am 
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How can one find the survey? All of my accounts are current with national.
Kevin Leigh


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 5:28 am 
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kevin leigh wrote:
How can one find the survey? All of my accounts are current with national.
Kevin Leigh


Kevin

I got a email on May 5th from survey monkey via SCCA so you might check your spam folder

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Les Chaney
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 5:44 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:40 am
Posts: 487
Location: Huntsville, AL
Stiner0931 wrote:
I'm with Mike. I don't think there's a need to change the rules. Younger people won't suddenly be interested in production racing because ABS or modern brakes are allowed. Generally speaking, the younger population doesn't want to, or know how to, work on a car. They just want to drive and not have to bother wrenching on, or developing a car. Production racing likely isn't the class for them unless they run with an arrive and drive team. B-Spec, SRF, Spec Miata - those classes are more suited for the younger generation.

Personally, I think we need to add a "C-Spec" class. Take the B-Spec model and apply it to C class sedans and coupes. It's basically showroom stock reincarnated. Low cost, entry level class to get new cars and new drivers interested, where you don't need to prep the car too much.




Seriously? Have you ever looked at cars outside of your little bubble? Gridlife, WTAC, NASA, etc are all experiencing huge growth with younger participants. They are all working hard to build their cars to the best of their abilities, just like any Prod racer. To say they only want to show up and not wrench on their cars, is absolute BS and shows your lack of experience with anything outside of Prod. Younger people are just as excited and as experienced in working on their cars as the "old guys", they just don't care about racing 60+ year old junk. They want to race modern cars that they see on the streets everyday. They want fuel injection, modern four valve heads, modern 5-6spd transmissions, real race brakes, modern tires and wheels, etc. They don't care about carbs, tractor motors, banjo rear ends, leaf springs, etc.

The LBC crowd seems to have forgotten how far their cars have come in the last 60 years. With Level 1 Prep levels those really are far separated from cheap old sports cars from across the pond.

I know of one STL racer right now who would come join FP, if his OE Mazda four pistons RX7 calipers were legal on his Focus. Be has repeatedly told me he ain't taking the good brakes off his car.

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Brett W
Huntsville, AL


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 6:17 am 
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Quote:
Personally, I think we need to add a "C-Spec" class. Take the B-Spec model and apply it to C class sedans and coupes. It's basically showroom stock reincarnated. Low cost, entry level class to get new cars and new drivers interested, where you don't need to prep the car too much.


I'd disagree with this.
The average DE car is prepared with items that would put it illegal in Production.
To race in Prod, you have to "want" to race in Prod because its a strange path to navigate vs the way most cars evolve from DE's / Track Days / TTs.
Thats why STU and STL are growing, the car prep is much more in line with what people are actually driving at events outside of SCCA.
None of these guys want to show up and drive a stock car beyond 1st time DE students.

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Jimmy Pettinato
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 7:23 am 
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Location: Huntsville, AL
jimmypet wrote:
Quote:
Personally, I think we need to add a "C-Spec" class. Take the B-Spec model and apply it to C class sedans and coupes. It's basically showroom stock reincarnated. Low cost, entry level class to get new cars and new drivers interested, where you don't need to prep the car too much.


I'd disagree with this.
The average DE car is prepared with items that would put it illegal in Production.
To race in Prod, you have to "want" to race in Prod because its a strange path to navigate vs the way most cars evolve from DE's / Track Days / TTs.
Thats why STU and STL are growing, the car prep is much more in line with what people are actually driving at events outside of SCCA.
None of these guys want to show up and drive a stock car beyond 1st time DE students.


Agreed, the moment you get done with your first DE weekend you are ready to make mods to the car. Probably starting with suspension and brakes. Guys are looking hard at "big brake" kits and there are tons of companies selling them for modern cars. Modern cars have plenty of power, they need more capable brakes and better shocks. This isn't even taking on the effects of racing on ancient sports cars.

Also Agree, most people staring out in racing aren't building Prod Cars. They take a path as mentioned above. The people building Prod cars now, want to be in Prod for some bizarre reason or they have a friend/mentor/family member, etc that races Prod. Otherwise most folks would pick STU/STL because it makes more sense. I know several ex IT racers who decided to go to STL instead of Prod. Those are lost entries.

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Brett W
Huntsville, AL


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 8:40 am 
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Posts: 974
Two points:

1. All I want/need for my VW 1.6 HP car is stock diameter vented rotors like the 1.8s run. But I don't see solid > vented addressed on this survey, so I guess I need to write a letter. Slotted/drilled is inferior to vented (in a solid rotor), more expensive and less reliable.

2. According to the opinion of a friend who did BOP analysis for a big time Pro series, good "race" brake calipers (vs stock) ARE worth some time ("a few seconds") over the course of a race due to better feel from the stiffer caliper, even in cases where the brakes are already thermally adequate.. Fastest lap isn't necessarily faster but consistency will improve, all positive. So maybe it is worth adding some small amount of weight along with aftermarket calipers.

Al Seim
HP VW Scirocco 1.6


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