prodracing.com

Unofficial SCCA Production Racing Forum
It is currently Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:02 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 165 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 17  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 7:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:21 am
Posts: 1322
One more note here- NASA GTS bmws like mine have been switching to the Bosch 4-channel ABS for years. IT's worth a tremendous amount of time, well over a second - from the plain OEM ABS.

I'm not sure how the prod category will handle this one. I'd have to add 100+ lbs.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 8:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:39 pm
Posts: 510
I think the ABS question makes sense.
I'd rather we look at the braking situation holistically.

It looked to me like there were responses that aligned with my opinions.
- I don't need this (but it will make brake pads a lot easier to get)
- HP may or may not "need" this overall
- But it is possible that some do
- We should leave rotors alone from a category perspective (maybe some outliers need a spec line item here?)
- ABS with 100% stock hardware (calipers, piping, controller, master, rotors) is fine with me
- Weight penalties for brakes don't make sense. If the competitive balance changes, then change the spec line.

_________________
Chris Schaafsma


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 8:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:54 am
Posts: 2171
chois wrote:
I think the ABS question makes sense.
I'd rather we look at the braking situation holistically.

It looked to me like there were responses that aligned with my opinions.
- I don't need this (but it will make brake pads a lot easier to get)
- HP may or may not "need" this overall
- But it is possible that some do
- We should leave rotors alone from a category perspective (maybe some outliers need a spec line item here?)
- ABS with 100% stock hardware (calipers, piping, controller, master, rotors) is fine with me
- Weight penalties for brakes don't make sense. If the competitive balance changes, then change the spec line.

Weight penalties are now how they do things.. "Oh you want that go faster part as a "safety item"? you can have it, but you have to add 100lbs." larger wheels/tires in GT and ST classes, larger wings in ST, etc etc etc.
I do not envy the guy in the tech shed trying to do the math if someone were to protest a competitors weight.

_________________
Matt Blehm
Houston Region
EP 1st Gen RX7
STU Scion FR-S


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 8:42 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 6:52 pm
Posts: 2251
Location: Topeka, Kansas
The survey is just that, a survey. There are lots of good options on the survey, both for and against this proposal.

The abs question would be to allow modern cars a completely stock abs system, read that again, completely stock abs system. No aftermarket bosch etc. Disabling abs in a modern car is a real pain in the ass.

Here's my perspective, right or wrong.

People are avoiding production for STL, mainly because of this brake rule that they are allowed. Let's keep prod moving forward.
Older cars certainly have a problem getting good front calipers, this has been going on for years.
Modern aftermarket calipers are easy and cheap to install.
Modern front brakes will help keep everyone's cars safer under braking.
Modern aftermarket calipers have cheaper pad options more readily available than stock pad shapes and sizes.

Now, the other options on the survey I think are worth discussing is rotor size based on class or weight of car, drilled and slotted, and caliper orientation.

I'd really like to hear the opposition to this proposal and what worries you about it. Thanks guys and I hope to see you all at the track very soon!!

_________________
jesseprathermotorsports.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 9:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:08 am
Posts: 799
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Much like some of the things I objected to while I was on the prod ad hoc committee, this will only make the pointy end of the field go even faster and cost EVERYONE $$ to try to keep up. If there's a specific car that needs a part, fix it. Don't revamp the entire production field for a few. I just looked at some titanium brakes that cost over $5000 for each end. Somebody will find a way to use them. Just think what this will mean for that tank that goes down the straights like a rocket but has a hard time slowing up.

But, I no longer have a tub on four wheels to throw my money into so knock yourselves out. I'll just bring a bigger calculator to figure out your new weight.

_________________
Jim Creighton
CARS Tour DoR
SEDiv SARRC Administrator
V8 Road Racing Series Administrator
Runoffs Line Chief Tech Prod cars


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 11:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:03 pm
Posts: 244
Location: Northeast PA
blamkin86 wrote:
One more note here- NASA GTS bmws like mine have been switching to the Bosch 4-channel ABS for years. IT's worth a tremendous amount of time, well over a second - from the plain OEM ABS.

I'm not sure how the prod category will handle this one. I'd have to add 100+ lbs.


Blake are they switching to the real Bosch Motorsports system or the Teves Mk60 4 channel unit from the E46 M3?

The MK60 swap is getting fairly common, its not crazy expensive, lots of take out systems available, you just need a stand alone harness & plumbing. MK60 offers a real world upgrade from stock E36 ABS of any generation of E36s.

The real Bosch Motorsports ABS system is head and shoulders above the MK60 in every way and I "think" entry level is around $10K last time I checked. I think those are much less common at the NASA and BMWCCA cars. I do know of some guys using it but of what I heard its still about as common as the guys who switched to Drenth's or Samsonas gearboxes (the really pointy end).

_________________
Jimmy Pettinato
88 BMW M3 - SPU #98


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 12:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:57 am
Posts: 199
There was no discussion or question about other than OEM ABS; no request for either modded or aftermarket ABS.

This was a discussion point I brought up during the town hall meeting at the VIR Runoffs, and I have a letter in the system regarding it. My proposal was quite simple: within the framework of discussing alternate brake components in Production, please consider allowing a competitor to choose "either alternate brake allowances or OE unmodified ABS with the OE brake components (stock caliper sand rotors, but still allow alternate pads/linings and hydraulic lines)." But not both.

My response to the survey on that question was:

Quote:
Q7
OEM ABS systems are becoming more frequent on cars that are classified in the Production category, and these systems are becoming more sophisticated and difficult to properly disable. Should an allowance be made to allow OEM ABS systems into the Production category?

Yes, OEM ABS systems should be allowed, but one of the following conditions must be met: 1) Must run stock brake caliper and rotor size if OEM ABS system is used; OR 2) If no OEM ABS system is used, then an alternate brake caliper and rotor allowance may be used


I would not support either modified or aftermarket ABS in Production.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 12:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:21 am
Posts: 1322
jimmypet wrote:
blamkin86 wrote:
One more note here- NASA GTS bmws like mine have been switching to the Bosch 4-channel ABS for years. IT's worth a tremendous amount of time, well over a second - from the plain OEM ABS.

I'm not sure how the prod category will handle this one. I'd have to add 100+ lbs.


Blake are they switching to the real Bosch Motorsports system or the Teves Mk60 4 channel unit from the E46 M3?

The MK60 swap is getting fairly common, its not crazy expensive, lots of take out systems available, you just need a stand alone harness & plumbing. MK60 offers a real world upgrade from stock E36 ABS of any generation of E36s.

The real Bosch Motorsports ABS system is head and shoulders above the MK60 in every way and I "think" entry level is around $10K last time I checked. I think those are much less common at the NASA and BMWCCA cars. I do know of some guys using it but of what I heard its still about as common as the guys who switched to Drenth's or Samsonas gearboxes (the really pointy end).



Exactly as you said - the middle of the field has upgraded E36 -> E36 ABS - the high dollar people are using the Motorsports setup $$$$.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 12:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:21 am
Posts: 1322
Greg I get your point now - it makes sense to be conservative AND allow ABS cars to just run what they came with.

I would consider re-installing mine - unless we get calipers, in which case I save $$$ on pads so I'd rather do that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 5:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:12 am
Posts: 176
Location: Boston, Ma
Jesse Prather wrote:

I'd really like to hear the opposition to this proposal and what worries you about it. Thanks guys and I hope to see you all at the track very soon!!


Does it help rules stability and class performance consistency?

Do the many existing cars have to pay so that a few new cars can more easily join the class?

Are the older brakes really a problem, or is it that the newer cars have not been restricted/adjusted properly?

_________________
Anthony Parker
NER 373024
E-Prod. Wanna-be


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 165 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 17  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group