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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 4:18 am 
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Location: Topeka, Kansas
GT6 wrote:
Jesse Prather wrote:

I'd really like to hear the opposition to this proposal and what worries you about it. Thanks guys and I hope to see you all at the track very soon!!


Does it help rules stability and class performance consistency? Yes I believe it does and makes the brakes more equal and safer for everyone.

Do the many existing cars have to pay so that a few new cars can more easily join the class? Nobody says you have to change calipers. I don't know why you wouldn't. Most guys that run their cars really hard have to already rebuild or replace their calipers yearly.

Are the older brakes really a problem, or is it that the newer cars have not been restricted/adjusted properly?
This is a really good point. Do we really need this? No, we can keep doing what we've always done. Personally I don't think that helps to keep our prod classes relevant to any younger crowd. We already have the stigma of being the oldest demographic in the club and I'm not saying that's a bad thing, however I do feel to attract a younger demographic we need to have more parts like these on our cars. Maybe I'm wrong. Good discussion either way.

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 4:19 am 
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Jim, titanium calipers wouldn't be allowed. Cost of the proposed calipers is cheap and rebuild kits are readily available.

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 5:06 am 
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Who did they send the survey to? What were the criteria for who they sent it to?

I have a car that could definitely benefit from a different brake package but I’ve managed to make it work and I don’t have brake issues.

The thing is, this happens, everyone will be spending the bucks to changes them because like it or not, this will be a performance benefit

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 6:15 am 
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I dont have a dog in this fight, my production class allows pretty much anything,,, but I think a relevant point that has been made is that going from street brakes to race brakes will usually recoup the costs in a few seasons leaving the user with better brakes and lower overhead going forward.
The reduced consumable costs alone I would think makes this a good thing.

When my car had stock brakes the stock pad shapes in race compounds were "more" expensive and smaller and lasted less events. Same for rotors.
My Wilwood pads and rotors last WAY longer and cost less and the complete side benefit is, they perform better.

From the outside looking in, this seems like a total win.
I never understood that Prod cars which are otherwise pretty developed race cars run around on stock brakes (and for some thats 40+ year old stock).
Respectfully.
jimmy p

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 6:20 am 
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Location: Boston, Ma
Aaron, I agree with you.

Regarding who got the survey: I guess I have no business getting it, but I did get the email and I did race in majors and the RunOffs last year. Maybe that's the criteria?


Jesse Prather wrote:
Yes I believe it does and makes the brakes more equal and safer for everyone.


It's hard for me to imagine that changing such a basic rule (production calipers) helps rules stability or helps maintain a consistent performance target.
Where the brakes 20 or 30 years ago unsafe? Maybe the risk tolerance has changed? Maybe it used to be, "just part of racing".
MAYBE it is the case that they are being asked to do much more than they used to because of performance creep???


Jesse Prather wrote:
Nobody says you have to change calipers. I don't know why you wouldn't. Most guys that run their cars really hard have to already rebuild or replace their calipers yearly.


Nobody says you have to install an engine in your race car, but it is perceived to be an advantage. It has been talked about many times before, the financial effect on a class of something new that is perceived to be an advantage.
Which calipers don't have rebuild kits readily available?

Jesse Prather wrote:
This is a really good point. Do we really need this? No, we can keep doing what we've always done. Personally I don't think that helps to keep our prod classes relevant to any younger crowd. We already have the stigma of being the oldest demographic in the club and I'm not saying that's a bad thing, however I do feel to attract a younger demographic we need to have more parts like these on our cars. Maybe I'm wrong. Good discussion either way.


This is a very well worn argument. Maybe it's true.
I want to see numbers (educated guesses) on how many disenfranchised (because of cost or frustration) cars will leave vs. how many new cars will join.
If it's 1:1 or favors the new cars, then maybe it's best for the class. At 1:1 and based on projections, I'd say it's too risky.


When the pole numbers come in, or the votes are cast, I want to see a breakdown of the numbers for who stands to make money from the rules change and who will be spending money based on the rules change.

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 9:07 am 
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I believe if you've run at a couple of runoffs in the last 4-5 years you probably got the survey. If you've run only one runoffs when it was close to you you may not have gotten it. I believe rule survey's should go out to people who actually run more than one season and/or runoffs. That's just me.

Anthony, I believe you and I could go back and forth on this forever but I just don't have the time for that. I appreciate all of your comments. Hope to see you at the track sometime.

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 10:08 am 
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Jesse, Because a change in the rules for Production Cars will affect all of the people running a Production car, a survey regarding a change like this should go out to all of the drivers that have been running the effected cars. Drivers that are participating in the Regional racing programs will be affected the same as those that are focused on the Runoffs. They have a stake in this type of change. As club members they need to be included.
I would give a more detailed response to the question asked in the survey but I did not get a copy of it. But I do not think there is a need to change the rules.

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 10:18 am 
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I'm with Mike. I don't think there's a need to change the rules. Younger people won't suddenly be interested in production racing because ABS or modern brakes are allowed. Generally speaking, the younger population doesn't want to, or know how to, work on a car. They just want to drive and not have to bother wrenching on, or developing a car. Production racing likely isn't the class for them unless they run with an arrive and drive team. B-Spec, SRF, Spec Miata - those classes are more suited for the younger generation.

Personally, I think we need to add a "C-Spec" class. Take the B-Spec model and apply it to C class sedans and coupes. It's basically showroom stock reincarnated. Low cost, entry level class to get new cars and new drivers interested, where you don't need to prep the car too much.

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 10:40 am 
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So the survey was sent out based on your participation, not the runoffs. Sorry for the confusion. I think all opinions and ideas are relevant. Thanks guys.

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 10:51 am 
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I got the survey as well. I've run a number of regionals, majors, and super tours in SW and CenDiv. (TX, LA, OK) over the last 5 years, but haven't done any of the big events like Sprints or Runoffs.
So yes, the survey was sent to "normal poor folk prod racers" as well.

I'm also of that 'younger' demographic. I'm a young pup at 42 and race a car that's older than my wife. Brakes on my car are a maintenance hassle. bleed every race day on easy tracks, bleed every session at places like Hallett. Before Hallett, I rebuild all calipers to prepare for the event. After the race, I throw what's left of $400 worth of pads in the trash and I rebuild all 4 calipers again. 8-12 hours of work and $500 just into the brakes for a single weekend at the track.

Part of that is the amount of heat that goes into the system, and part of it is the >35 yr old calipers with so much slop in the sliders that the pads taper. some cars are able to replace/rebuild the slider parts, but on the RX7 caliper they are machined into the cast retainer bracket. So when those guys wear out, you have a loose and floopy caliper and pad taper. remanufactured calipers are all the same since they're the same batch of 35-40 year old parts. piston bores and seal surfaces are often worn and corroded/pitted, so it's a crapshoot on putting parts store stuff on your race car unless you tear them apart, inspect, and reassemble them before installation. sometimes you get a parts store counterman that's willing to return a couple sets until you get good ones, other times not so much.

On my STU car with (omg) 4-pot Wilwoods, I bleed them every few races and rebuild the calipers once a season-- they usually start dragging at the end of the race before they show signs of leakage, so when it takes more than 1 person to push the car through tech scales, I know it's time to rebuild them. Pads are $150/set and last >40 hours a set.

performance advantage? maybe, maybe not. Without ABS on either car, I flatspot slicks with stock brakes just like I flatspot DOTs with aftermarket brakes.

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